Selling without the sleaze with Shay Schindler from Sales with Shay
If selling is a necessary part of running a business, how can we change our relationship to selling so it feels less sleazy? This is the question at the heart of Amy’s year long experiment in not selling and it formed the basis for today’s episode with sales consultant, Shay Schindler from Sales With Shay.
In this conversation they talk about:
How Shay shifted her mindset from ‘selling is sleazy’ to ‘selling is a service’
The three questions Shay asks herself every time she is building a sales page or funnel
The tarot cards we’re using to help shift our energy around selling
How to sell without getting on a sales call
Shay’s most disliked traditional sales tactic to watch out for when you’re being sold to
About Shay:
Shay is a high-ticket sales consultant and coach with almost two decades of experience helping thought-leaders and creators build profitable businesses online.
After side-hustling for years, she took her online business dreams full-time and co-founded a brand consultancy in 2017 and has been busy ever since.
She’s had the opportunity to help hundreds of clients grow their own online business, traveled to 20+ countries working remotely, started a podcast (@Curiously Guided) and discovered a passion for teaching non sales-y people how to sell more.
Love what you do, but need help selling it? Slide in her DMs at @saleswithshay on IG :)
Connect with Shay at www.saleswithshay.com or on IG @saleswithshay
Listen to Curiously Guided at https://www.curiouslyguided.com/
Links and resources:
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Record a question for us to answer here on the podcast!
Find transcripts to all my episodes here.
To learn more about Amy, head to amykuretsky.com
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Transcript
[0:04] Welcome to Breathe into Business, a podcast for folks who want to hear what it's really like to run an intuitive-led business. I'm your host, Amy Koretsky, a Breathwork facilitator who helps service providers, course creators, and artists tap into their own inner knowing so that they, can run businesses from a place of trust and self-confidence. I created this podcast to help folks like you, who are disillusioned with the overculture of online small business building, to permission yourself to follow a different path.
In these episodes, you'll hear conversations that are direct, messy, and even a little bit scary at times.
My biggest hope is that each of these episodes helps you feel even 10% more confident in leaning into what your intuition is sharing with you and doing business your own way.
[0:54] Now, let's take a breath and talk business. Hey y'all, welcome back to Breathe Into Business. I'm Amy, your host of this lovely podcast, and I'm so glad that you're here. Today is actually the last episode of season one of Breathe Into Business. I know, can you believe it? We are already 12 episodes into this season.
Blew my mind. Anyway, I'm really excited about today's episode. I'm gonna tell you all about it in a minute, but first I just wanted to give you the very quick heads up that I'm gonna take a little break. As a lot of you know, it's been, there's been a lot that's gone on in my life since I decided to restart this podcast under this new name, this new brand, and I need to catch up with my life doing the lifing things and take a little bit of a summer break. So I'm gonna take a little break, we're gonna be back, I promise. I even have something really exciting when we do come back.
[2:06] In the summer or early fall. But in the meantime, I've got loads and I'm talking about loads of back episodes from previous seasons from when the podcast was in its old identity. So feel free to like go back and listen to any of those if you're missing this sort of content over the spring and summer while I'm gone. But I promise I'll be back. It's going to be better than ever.
[2:31] And in the meantime, I have a amazing episode for you today. So I wanted to talk about sales more because you all know if you've been listening to this podcast for the last couple months that I I have decided to run an experiment.
I don't remember what episode I think it was like three or four episodes ago but I decided to run an experiment I talked all about it on this podcast about how i'm not selling for the rest of the year.
And you have to go back and listen to that episode if you don't understand what i'm talking about or if you want to hear what my definition of selling means as part of this experiment.
But I wanted to talk about selling even more with someone who I know sells all day long.
Like that's their job is to sell.
And so immediately I thought of my friend and past client Shay Schindler. She's amazing.
She basically sells all day long. She sells not only her own work because she has a branding and design agency with her husband, but she also is a consultant for other businesses selling high-ticket services. And so.
[3:47] Because I know her well, I knew her evolution of her own relationship to selling. And it's a sort of evolution that I desire in my own business and in my own body of my feelings around selling. And so I wanted to have Shay on so we could have a really honest conversation about selling. Also because never in a million years would I consider Shay someone who's sleazy, like not in the least bit. And so talking to somebody who sells all day long but doesn't do it in a sleazy fashion was exactly the sort of conversation that I wanted to end this season of the podcast on. So we talked about so many great things today and there are some really practical and tactical things that Shay shared with us around how to build, quote unquote, no like and trust factors.
But she goes into it with way more detail in this way that I'd never considered before and I really loved and I'm excited for you to hear.
[4:49] So anyway, let me tell you a little bit more about Shay. Shay is a high-ticket sales consultant and coach with almost two decades of experience helping thought leaders and creators build profitable businesses online.
After side hustling for years, she took her online business dreams full-time and co-founded a brand consultancy in 2017 and has been busy ever since.
She's had the opportunity to help hundreds of clients grow their online businesses, traveled to over 20 countries working remotely, started the podcast Curiously Guided, and discovered a passion for teaching non-salesy people how to sell more.
So enjoy this episode. Enjoy this conversation with Shay.
Reach out to her if you have your own concerns around sales that you want to work through.
And please come on back here in a couple of months when the podcast will be back.
In the meantime, if you want to engage with my work further, go online to amykoretsky.com and download my Breathwork for Business challenge. You get daily emails for a short handful of days with guided breathwork practices and journaling prompts to help you connect deeper to your body, to your breath, and to your business. And also, if you want to work together, You can learn how to do that over on my website as well. All right. Thanks, y'all.
[6:15] All right, Shay. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.
I'm so excited to be here. I've been really looking forward to this.
Yeah. So I know that I read your bio already in the intro, but if you would just maybe explain who you are and what you do in like two sentences or less, what would that sound like?
Yeah. So I am a sales consultant and I help creative entrepreneurs and business owners.
[6:45] Figure out a way to sell their services in a way that doesn't make them feel slimy or sleazy.
Yeah. I love that. One of the reasons why I... Well, I wanted you on this podcast for many reasons. One, because I've worked with you on and off for years and I know how wonderful you are.
Are, too, because I think that in my own personal, Let's say evolution around sales right now. For anyone who is a regular listener of this podcast, they know that I'm on an experiment right now where I'm going a whole year without quote, unquote, selling. Although that can be defined in different ways from if you've listened to that episode. And what I really admire about you and how you've come into your own around this sort of work around sales is that I would never in a million years ever consider you sleazy.
[7:43] You're someone that I see as very authentic, as very relatable and conversational. And when, you are connecting with people, you are connecting to them on a person-to-person basis.
And so I really wanted to bring you into this conversation because I think a lot of the the listeners of this podcast, really need to sell more, including myself.
We need to be selling more.
And yet, we have a lot of internalized yucky feelings about selling.
And I think you've done a really amazing job of your own internal work around selling.
And so I wanted you to share your story with more folks. Yeah, that's such a great question.
I also didn't see myself as a salesman or a salesperson for my entire life, honestly, up until the past few years.
And I think you hit the nail on the head.
[8:36] A lot of us, myself included, have a lot of story in our head around what it means to sell and sales. So my...
I always try to think back on my story with sales and where did this all come from.
And I can trace it back to when I was in high school, I had a job at Old Navy.
And I did not like... I wanted to work on the registers because that was where the fun was.
That's where a lot of time passed. But we were supposed to sell credit cards.
And I was bad at it. I felt bad. So many people, I was like, this is not a good move for you. And why would I ever offer you this?
But it was like, push, push credit cards. And I didn't.
So they always stuck me in the back of the store in the fitting room, which was so boring.
So around that time, I picked up this story like, oh, I'm no good at sales and sales requires you to compromise your values and I don't like that. That's not me. So I picked up that identity.
I also had some friends at the time that were selling cut coat knives. And I thought that was the most bizarre idea ever to go knock on doors and talk to strangers about knives.
And so I just picked up a narrative of like, selling is gross. It requires me to do things that make me feel uncomfortable and make other... Just do things towards people that they don't really need. And so I had that storyline. Fast forward, my husband and I started our own creative agency. That went really well right from the beginning. And I kept getting.
[10:04] People telling me like, you are amazing at sales. And I never struggled to find clients.
I never struggled to convert clients. And I was around a lot of creatives and I kept hearing like, it's so hard to find clients. It's so hard to sell. And I was like, Oh, opposite for me.
This is the easy part. What sucks for me is trying to teach myself code behind a computer screen by myself. So I realized through starting an agency that like, Oh, maybe I'm actually good at sales? Why do I keep getting that feedback?
Honestly, the big reframes for me happened around when I started working with coaches like you and Kelsey Kerslake, who I know is a common connection.
And I started having a lot of wonderful women talk to me about selling and sales in a totally new way.
And Kelsey was the first person to say, sales is a support or sales is a service that you can do for somebody.
I had another mentor, Melinda Livesey, who talked about selling more as a true act of curiosity.
It's not about having the answers. It's more about asking questions and making people feel seen, heard, and understood.
As soon as I put the dots together of like, oh wait, selling can be this really awesome container or space that I hold for people where we talk about their dreams and goals and visions and then strategize a way to get there.
I'm good at conversation. I love one-on-one.
[11:31] I love connecting with people. This can be a nourishing thing for both.
I love it. It nourishes me up and then I can help another person.
That feels awesome and supportive and empowering. What's up with all this sleaze talk?
So I kind of... Just from meeting some really cool, I think, older seasoned female, mostly business people, I started to shift the way that I felt about sales and what sales even was.
And then I realized, oh, yeah, my zone of genius is really around this connecting with people holding this space, helping them have these conversations.
I'm just a curious bitch. So like, I love to ask questions.
And so like, that kind of suited my, it just like was a weird fit for all my skills, and I was doing well at it.
So I started to just ask myself, like, okay, how can I have more of this?
How can I step more into this?
And also, how can I help the people that are around me that are struggling with the thing that's coming easy for me.
And that's kind of hard. I know you know that too. Like it was hard for me to even acknowledge that this came easy and it was difficult for others. But once I did, I've started to just be like, okay how do I step more and more into this?
And yeah, that's kind of what brought me here today.
[12:42] Thank you for sharing that. A couple of main things that I heard and what you shared were, you really changed the definition of what sales was for you. Going from this place of sales means compromising your values for pure profit and changing that to sales is about really understanding what a person needs and if you're able to help them getting curious to find ways to create that outcome they're looking for. And I'm guessing that as part of this, part of the reason why you felt more comfortable with sales is like, if you were engaging with someone who you knew maybe you weren't the right fit for, or you didn't have the solution for them, that you didn't have a problem with being like, Hey, I might not be the best person for you for this specific request, but maybe I know someone and that you would... Because I know you and I you're a really generous person and you're really well-connected and are generous about sharing resources with other people. Does that feel true? Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up. That was actually one of the notes I had today. I wanted to make sure I mentioned. So for me, I think with sales, the typical way... And I think this is why we all have this weird idea around selling is.
[14:00] It's been this numbers game where just all of these bros were out there trying to hit these numbers and it was just like a literal quantity over quality thing. They didn't care if what they were selling you was the right fit for you. It was just like, I need to meet my KPIs.
And it was like this hustle kind of thing. And they're just looking for the next sap that'll fall for the pitch. So that in my mind is the old style. And I think that honestly, we're more savvy these days. I just don't think that's going to continue to work.
So the way that I... This is just me as a human, but I'm a relationships person. So I've always been very much long game in mind. And on a call, I think it's so... Or even in any kind of sales container, it's so important to be able to detach from your own agenda. I think the more and more you can think about sales as like a meditation, or I even call it improv sometime of just like, can I be super present and here with this person and listen to what they need, and then take them in the right direction. And sometimes that's not me. And that, to me, I think it's the biggest disservice, not only to the person, but to yourself.
When you try to do all these ninja kung fu moves and strong arm somebody because you said the right little thing and you triggered them and then they said yes, that person is not a great fit for you. And so they're not going to be a fun client to work with.
No, not at all. Right. And so I always think that these tactics to try to woo people into working with you are really short-sighted. it.
[15:28] And I'm all about the long game. My network is really important to me.
My relationships are really important to me. So it's always been very easy for me to detach from my personal agenda and really show up for someone.
And if I am not the right prescription to their problem, I will send them in the right direction.
I always have other places that I can send people.
And honestly, I try to... My goal is to provide value in any call that I have.
So even if we get on a conversation and I can tell like you're not a great fit for what I offer, I'll still have that conversation with you.
We'll still talk about where you're going, what you're trying to do.
I'll bring my strategy game. I want to bring value to every single call that I'm on, no matter what that end result is.
Because I know even if it's not fit right now, it may be a fit a year from now.
Or they may now have me on the top of their brain and they'll connect me with someone really awesome.
So I really try to look at every single interaction as like...
[16:25] I think about it as watering seeds in a garden. I don't know what it's going to grow into, but it's important for me to nurture and cultivate and not just look at it as this churn and burn.
I just got to hit 100 doors and then by probability, three will say yes.
Well, yeah, the whole idea of conversion rates where the general thought in the online business world is a 2% to 3% conversion rate is normal, which is wild.
And that's also thinking about more of like a traffic-based way of looking at things.
And I know you particularly tend to do service work. And so there's a lot more one-on-one conversations that you're having as opposed to... So you're doing a more relationship-based funnel as opposed to a traffic-based funnel. And so I'm curious, taking what you believe in what you've learned in this more relationship-based way of selling.
How would that then relate to someone who's not doing sales calls, but is maybe like, quote unquote, selling a course or selling a product in some way, something where it is a little bit more traffic-based? How do you feel like bringing that idea of sales as a service.
[17:47] To that larger audience? Yeah.
Yeah, that's such a... Yeah, it totally makes sense. That's such a great question.
So I've been kind of nerding out about sales lately. And I've been...
So what we know from the data is that people make sales decisions more from, an emotional place than a logical place. So I think throughout all of time, we've thought like, oh, we're such logical thinkers, and we need the dimensions and the facts and the figures.
And that's how we'll make a really smart choice. But really, it's more of a subconscious thing.
It's more of, do I feel safe with this person that they're going to take me from where I am now to where I want to be? So I've been really exploring the ideas of building safety and trustworthiness into a sales process. Because if people are making all their decisions based on emotion, that emotion that they're looking for is safety and trust.
So there's some really cool ladies at Harvard that are researching all about this idea of building trust and they've kind of boiled it down. Trust is a really funny idea. It's like something you hear all the time but.
[18:54] Even if you look at Brene Brown's trust model, I think it's like six or seven letters long.
And it's like this big old acronym.
It's hard to get a really consistent definition and we use it to mean anything all the time.
So I like these ladies because they broke it down into three key ingredients.
And basically, for people that are talking about more of a traffic style funnel, what I recommend is that you go through all of the touch points that buyers go through on the journey of first meeting you all the way to checking out.
And you ask yourself these three questions because these are the three ingredients that lead to building trust with buyers.
Trust creates a sense of safety, which leads to purchasing. So that's the theory behind all of this.
One is what we thought it was. It's can you do the work for me?
Do you have the capability?
So you need to prove that you are capable of doing what you say you're doing.
So on your website, do you have case studies? Do you have trust pilot reviews, some like third party independent reviews?
You know, um, how are you showing that you, how long have you been around?
How many clients have you worked with?
You know, any kind of like social proof stuff showing that what what's what I.
[20:05] Know, certifications is a funny topic, but like what training have you done?
How have you, um, built up your expertise and your credibility?
Where have you spoke, you know, that kind of thing of letting people know that you who you say you are, and you can do like physically I'm capable of doing this service.
That's the number one. Number two is I trust that you are who you say you are. So this is where we hear a lot about showing yourself. People want to see a human. They want to connect with a human.
That's where we get that deep emotional connection. So are you as a business letting people get to know you? Are you showing a little bit of the cool stuff about like what uniquely makes you I know I'm going back and forth. Sometimes we have a person-based business. Sometimes we have a product-based business. But are you showing that uniqueness, that juice, that special story that your business has? And more importantly, are you showing up consistently?
And I don't mean every day, but I do mean as the same person. So what our subconscious brains do is if you show up, Amy, as you have with me over the years, you are always Amy.
And you always are saying a similar thing. I can rely on you. Like a go-to person for solid advice, you're grounded. You show up consistently in my life as the same person. That's a trust signal.
My subconscious brain says she always shows up how she says she's going to show up. I can trust her.
[21:29] So that's kind of that second piece of letting people get to know you and being yourself over time. And now you're not switching brands every week. You're not a totally different person every week, you're yourself, you're that same person over time. And, And then the third one, the most important one is.
[21:48] I care about you and your results over myself. So this gets back to the idea of detaching agenda.
So I would infuse all of my touchpoints with messaging and examples of how I prioritize clients, how my clients and results are the most important thing for my business, how we put clients over everything else. So that idea of like, we are here for you, we're here for the long game, we want the best for you. At the end of the day, I always...
I don't know why I always think about this, but did you play Oregon Trail at school?
Oh yeah. I'm a child of the 80s.
[22:22] It's probably not an awesome game for a lot of reasons, but I always think about my clients...
You have to cross a river at some point in Oregon Trail and you have choices. You can ford the river, you can hire a boat, or you can do something else. And so I always think about my client on one side of the river trying to get to the other side and they have choices.
And so I'm thinking about like, what are they going, like, what are they asking these different vendors and like, what are their concerns?
And they're concerned about safety. They don't want to die in the river, right?
So like, how can I show up as the safest option for them as that transport across the river?
I don't know why that's the visual metaphor that comes to my mind, but TLDR basically, if you can go through and infuse all of the little points that people go through on a journey from meeting you to actually buying And think about those three things.
I'm capable, here's me, I understand you and prioritize you.
If you can sprinkle those bits in at all of those touch points, that will lead to more conversions. I know conversions is a nerd word, but yeah, that's the secret.
Well, what I like about this is it's really...
[23:30] More specifically describing what needs to happen for that, quote unquote, no like and trust factor.
Because that is a phrase that's thrown out a lot. I use that phrase a lot, this whole like, no like and trust, no like and trust.
But it's like, okay, what does no like and trust actually mean?
And I think those three questions or those three points that you just shared are really good ways of actually analyzing what you're doing, how you're showing up, the copy that you're writing, all of those things, the content you're producing.
[24:05] And asking those three questions with every way that you're showing up.
Yeah, I think one thing people don't really think about is how big the sale funnel actually is.
There's a lot of hyper-focus on the sales call or the sales page or whatever that big proposal event is in your sales journey.
But really, I'd like to have people think about, every single touch is an opportunity to sell people and to build relationship with people and to water those seeds.
So can you think about, your website in my mind is like this free sales, junior salesman that you have on your team. And I want all the information out on my public platforms as possible.
That way, when people are coming and meeting me and doing the deep dive on me, they can get to know me and learn from me. And I don't even have to be there to do that.
But thinking about step one, step two, I think that's honestly a really nice exercise for a lot of business owners is, have you even charted out the steps of how someone goes from stranger to giving you money?
And then really asking yourself at each step, what could I do here to build trust?
What am I possibly doing here that is eroding trust? And that can be really powerful.
[25:22] I mean, I even am sitting here and reflecting on a handful of clients, both recent and past that I've worked with where it's like, there is no real sales conversation because by the time they reach out to me, it's a done deal. They want to work with me. I mean, even I think, granted it was years ago now, but when you first reached out to me, you learned about me through Kelsey.
And so there's that social proof right there because you had a trusted person recommending me.
I remember specifically, you said something to the effect of like, something about the copy on my website really got you and you're like, yes, this is the right person for me. And so by the time we even connected live over a Zoom call or something, it was like, yes, this is a done deal. And so that whole idea where like.
[26:12] At least for my personal experience, I think one of the reasons why I feel so uncomfortable with selling and I've had to do a lot of... Or I'm currently doing a lot of work around, mentally reframing what selling means is because I haven't actually had to do a lot of sales over the course of my business. Usually people come to me because they're referred to me by somebody else who's worked with me. And by the time they show up, they're like 100% in and basically just need to know a couple bullet points of details. And so since I haven't had to do a lot of sales, I feel uncomfortable with sales. And so I love having this conversation with you.
Yeah. And I think honestly, what I'm hearing when you said that.
[26:53] My goal, and I always say this to people, is to get people on a call already sold.
And so I spend a lot of time in your... I told you that from the beginning, your funnel is dialed in, right? I had the connection point. I got to have a little sample with you. I downloaded the freebie pack and I got on the email list and I had the connection.
And you are really good at diversifying your outreach. So you had the podcast, you do group work. And so I had all of these ways to get to know you. And it was cool. You had already done all of that. It wasn't like you had to individually have all these conversations with me.
And then by the time I was on the call, I was like, I'm sold. I'm in. I just need to know logistics. And to me, that's the sign of a really healthy funnel. The nerd word for that is an objectionless close. But you can handle a lot of people's concerns up front. And I think that's a really nice, awesome place in the online world. I think that is one advantage we have that we can take advantage of. And to your point, I like the group of people that we work with because.
[27:57] We're not salespeople. And I think that one of our biggest advantages is the fact that we don't sell all day. I do sell all day long every day, but most of the people I work with don't sell all day long every day. And so that's great. Be a non-salesman. Your whole strategy for the year is perfect. Embrace that. You're not going to go in and be pushy and make people feel weird.
And one thing I really like to encourage people, there is no one right way to sell. I think that that for me, I've noticed going through sales training, there's a lot of gurus that are teaching you their perfect script.
And then everyone's trying to come in and mimic their energy and do exactly what the guru does. And the problem is that works for the guru because that's their style, but it's not going to work for you because it's not your style.
And so I really like to encourage people like.
[28:48] Just because this person does it this way, there's no one right way to have a sales call.
It is truly an improv. Things are going to get weird and awkward and there's no way to harness it. And so I think the most awesome thing that we can do as business owners is embrace our own uniqueness. I'm not a salesperson. I haven't been classically trained on how to trigger all your buttons and objection handle. And so I get to use that to my advantage. I get to be a really, cool human that gets to connect with you and have this really unique conversation in my own style and in my own energy. And I don't have to have all of these objection responses memorized and be really like this stoic hard ass because that's the guy I learned from. I can do it in my own goofy way, which is my story. Which is what comes back to that second point that you had around authenticity or showing up consistently as you and not trying to put on somebody else's is a script or anything like that.
Which also when you were saying that, I don't necessarily have a question around this, but it was something that was going through my brain as you were talking about it.
I wonder if that second bullet point, which I think is so important of showing up consistently as your unique self, I wonder if that is sometimes challenging because of systemic reasons within our society.
[30:15] Specifically for groups who feel like they've had to code switch in different communities or different scenarios.
And so, I don't know, it's just interesting because for people who've maybe grown up, code switching in different ways, I wonder if, I don't know, I don't exactly have a question, it's something that is making my brain kind of turn in circles of like wondering the problematic or problematic effects that that necessity of creating trust can be put upon folks with marginalized communities, marginalized identities.
So just to know, I think that's a really interesting thought.
And I don't really, here's where my brain went as you guys were talking or as you were just talking about that. Bye-bye.
[31:04] One thing that we actually... So I have a podcast called Curiously Guided and we talk about this a lot.
This idea... I've noticed in the online business space, and this isn't just sales, this is everywhere.
And I think it has a lot to do with our culture and society. But we're all taught that there's one right way to do things from kindergarten. You don't know the answer, your teacher or somebody else knows the answer, and you need to go get it from them. And then regurgitate.
You learn to regurgitate. And so I think we go into the online world and we're programmed to think the same. We're out there like, I got to find the right answer for how to build this business.
And so we feel like the only right way to do it is by reverse engineering somebody else's answer.
But the problem is what we know about works and online businesses, it's really the wild west.
Like it's really when you can create something unique, that's uniquely you, you, that is usually the ticket, right? But there's so much shit that goes into us unmasking and being uniquely us. That's a huge topic. And we all have a lot of different layers of why that may or may not work for us. But I have noticed that it helped me. I had this idea and I know my experience is my own and not the same for everybody, but I just had this idea of I don't know what I'm doing and somebody else out there has the right answer.
It's not going to work until I find that. And I needed someone to tell me how to do it.
And it wasn't until I decided, no, wait, I get to do this how I want.
[32:32] There is no one right way. That thing started to feel a little bit more naturally for me. And I'll be honest, visibility is a big thing for me. It's hard.
It requires a lot of vulnerability.
[32:44] And that's a safety thing, right? So I'm the first to acknowledge, It can be really, really hard.
To show up as yourself. And some great advice I got about this was... I almost think about my business personality as like how Beyonce has Sasha Fierce. You get to set the boundaries.
You don't have to show up and say everything to everybody. You get to decide how and what you're going to share. And so I often have myself like, how could I do this in a way that feels safe?
[33:14] I ask myself that question a lot. And giving yourself permission to do it differently, and then also do it in a way that feels really good for you. Even if it is contradicting advice you think you've heard, to me, that's always the best path. And then the third thing is just being gentle with yourself that this is really fucking hard work. And it takes time and capacity expansion and healing. It may not all... I'm on the journey myself. It's just been a series of of baby steps.
But I get, I trust you, I understand that this is a big ask.
It's been difficult for me myself. And so I think just starting with how can I take the next baby step in a way that makes me feel safe and then trust that I can grow and I can get stronger over time, that's been helpful for me. And I'm not sure if that's even related to what you said, but that's what popped up.
[34:05] No, I love it. And it is reminding me of the tarot card that I pulled right when we started this call.
Because as you know from someone who's worked with me live before, I often like to pull a card right before a call.
And today, I pulled the two of cups, which for people who are not familiar with the tarot, it's a beautiful image of two individuals.
In this case, it kind of looks like two kind of like femme presenting, maybe like sisters or friends or something, standing, facing each other, each holding a cup and like you're looking like they're about to give it receive it from and to the other person. And it really made me think of like, oh, how could I even, And then as I'm working to redefine what sales is and like.
[34:53] Heal and shift my own relationship to this idea of sales. How can I actually use two of cups as a anchor or an archetype for the sales as a service that I want to be moving towards?
But I also see it as what you were just saying of being gentle with ourselves.
Because oftentimes with two of cups, it can be about that sweetness that we need to give and receive to ourselves as well.
Yeah. What popped up for me when you showed me the 2 Oaf cups originally was...
One thing I've been trying to think about with sales, I heard somebody describe whether you're in a call with someone or you're taking them through an intentional journey online.
[35:34] I think the old approach to sales was almost a bit adversarial.
I'm on one side of the wall and you're on the other.
I had a mentor say, I'm trying to think about how to remove the bricks of the wall.
I want to be on the same side. I want to be a friendless person.
And so I think, you know, for when I saw the two of cups, I saw that like wall removed, like we're on the same side, we're friends, I want the best for you.
And to me, that's that very like, new way that like trustworthy way.
So I loved the two of cups, I thought it was like a perfect visual.
And, you know, so I, I've paid a lot for like sales trainings, you know, like I want to have a sharp sword. One thing that really bothers me is...
Here's a great example. You'll hear in the sales world a lot the idea of handling objections.
But who wants to feel handled, right?
That is, again, that old us versus them, adversarial style. I'm just going to try to hoodwink you and sell you on this right here.
So yes. It feels very like con man sort of thing. Yes.
And to be truthful, I found it helpful to learn all this stuff to know what I am in a position where I'm being sold to just what is going on. But I think it's helpful to know that.
[36:50] They know your psychology probably better than you do. They talk to like 100 yous in a month.
And they practice what they say, and they know the right thing to say it at the right time.
And they're familiar with sales psychology. So they're going to try to get you to say yes a few times in the conversation, because they know that you're more likely to say yes later.
And there's going to be some urgency or some scarcity scares in there. Right.
And so I've found it helpful to just be aware of the little strings people pull so I can be more informed by it myself.
But also back to the two of cups, I'm paying attention to how I'm feeling.
And if I don't have that two of cups energy in a sales relationship, I'm going to bounce.
Right. So I love it. Yeah.
[37:32] Well, okay. So now I'm curious and I want to hear some of the more like smarmy or sleazy sales tactics that you have heard in some of these trainings that you're like, nope, not ever going to do that one. Just to like give all of us who are curious and want to know like, what should we be looking out for? Not that we're necessarily ever even going to be attracted to some of the the lists that these folks who like these sort of tactics are using, but you never know.
Yes. Yeah. And I do always say this with a little caveat of, if you have ever done any of these things, no shade, it's okay. To each his own and you can decide what makes you feel... At the end of the day, my biggest thing is like, does this make you feel good? Did you sit with it? Then do it.
So for me, there's this idea of takeaway sales, which you may or may not have encountered before, but it's basically like on the call, they want you to make a decision. And so they'll tell you If you don't make a decision right now, it's not an intuitive hit for you. And so this offer doesn't exist if you don't give me your credit card right now. And that kind of sale really bothers me because I've always been a person like, I need time. That's just how I make the decisions. I want to sit... I mean, that's a nervous system thing. Like our nervous...
[38:53] Nervous systems need time. That's so funny you say that. I feel like when I'm in any sales treating, I just want to be like, has anybody learned about the nervous system? Because it, and honestly, I think it's, some of it is designed to trigger you and get you into that fight or fight place. And they know that some people in those situations are people pleasers, right?
And that they'll do what they want, right? So it's all like a nervous thing. And so for me.
[39:18] I was really bothered by that because, and I had one instance where I was supposed to sell like that and I just couldn't because I want to treat people how I want to be treated, right? I need time to make decisions. One thing that's always been really important to me is I've never been an on the call closer. And I know that's like a big taboo and like you should take the credit card on the call, but I don't like it when people do that to me. Like I need to have time to sit and I want to respect people enough. Like if you need time to sit with it, that's fine.
[39:46] And it's funny in sales training, they'll like vilify the, Oh, do they need to pray on it?
Do they need to sit with her? It pisses me off so much. Wow.
And they kind of shame people if you let someone get off. They'll shame the salesperson like, oh, you didn't push hard enough. And I'm like, what a nice way to build trust with someone to say like, hey, I respect you enough. I'll send you these details. You sit with it and you make your own decision that makes you feel good. To me, starting from that place is a much better place to start a project from than from the other. Well, and for me personally, I have...
I have, maybe I think forever since I've been a coach, had my prices online.
And granted, I have containers where I'm not doing a unique proposal for every client out there.
So I don't need to come up with an entire proposal. It's like my prices are my prices are my prices.
So why wouldn't I tell you in advance?
So that A, we're not wasting either of our times for you to get on the call and then to give you a number that is like completely out of bounds for what you can afford and B.
[40:56] You know, I want you already wanting to work. Like I want you already saying yes, before we ever get on the call, like we talked about before. And so like knowing that price in advance is a a good way to like have.
Your nervous system feel much more calm and secure going into the call because nothing triggers our nervous system more than money.
No doubt. No doubt. Yeah. And I know the topic of prices on websites is a really hairy one.
[41:25] We actually just had a money consultant on the podcast and she had a pretty interesting answer.
So my co-host is very, prices on the website, it's important. And I've never had prices on on the website because we've done website projects and they require custom scoping.
So that's... To me, it depends. It depends on the client. And so this money guest we had brought up an interesting point. And she said, The clients I am working with have money issues that I am helping them work through.
So it makes a lot more sense for me to have a conversation with them around their money and talk about it on the call than it does if I were to just hit them on the website.
And I do think there are definitely instances where a conversation needs to be had first to build that trust. So I know that it's a dicey topic and you can get into things like value-based pricing, which make people feel weird. But sometimes that's right in the creative industry.
So again, I think it's one of those things like, think about your person, your person, Amy.
It makes all the sense in the world. They want that transparency. Like you're saying, It's like allowing them to make all their decisions. You don't have to custom price things.
Like, yes, that makes all the sense in the world. I think that's a great strategy.
For other people, it may not be the right thing. And it comes back to what does your person need and what do you need to feel really good to start a strong relationship?
[42:45] Yeah, absolutely. One thing that I wanted to ask about, because... And in full transparency, it's because I'm experimenting with this myself, is experimenting with not doing sales calls.
So I want to know your thoughts on this. So to give an example.
[43:08] Over the last year or so, my coaching container has shifted in this way where I no longer do live coaching calls. All of my coaching is over Voxer. For those of you listening who aren't familiar with Boxer. It's like a voice messaging app that you can also use written format in and share files and pictures and stuff. So it's basically unlimited access to me through this app. And because I'm no longer doing live calls, it didn't make sense to me to do live sales calls.
Because if that's not how I'm showing up for people when we're working together, why would I show up in this way to start the engagement? And also because the whole point of me switching to Voxer is because I wanted to have less things on my calendar. And so how do How do I do that? By having nothing on my calendar, no live calls.
And so for me, I've been trying to...
[44:01] Well, it has evolved. At first, I was just trying to do this email sort of back and forth, but I found that that wasn't as effective as I wanted it to be. So now what I started doing is giving people Voxer access to me immediately when they think that they want to work together, because then it kind of gives them a taste of like, oh, well, this is what it's actually like to engage with me over this platform. If you like this, and if I'm answering your questions in a way that makes you feel safe and secure and trust me, like, then we can continue. And that was like, maybe a four or five month evolution to like move towards that. But it does seem to be working because the last couple people that have reached out and where I brought them immediately onto Voxer to have the conversation, I have those people have signed up with me versus the first couple where I think that there was a little bit of disconnect. Yeah. Yeah. You bring up an excellent point of it's good to set expectations of how working with you will be in your sales process. So if I'm not having a lot of one-on-one calls with you in your process, I probably shouldn't do that in the sales process either, right?
[45:12] The whole point of sales is like testing the waters, right? Are we going to work out?
So if it's going to be a Voxer relationship, I've actually had a woman close me on Voxer for an expensive coaching package.
And it was the same.
I was only ever going to get Voxer access to her. And so she just answered all my questions and we chatted over Voxer.
And I loved it. I still didn't. I got to hear her voice. I got to hear her shine her light on me as an individual, which made me feel taken care of, right?
So it still accomplished all the things that the call did. but it was within her container, which is how we were going to work together.
So I think that's fantastic. I, um, I'm biased here. I just really love sales calls. Like they are a joy for me.
[45:52] It is so fun for me to get on and meet people and have face to face.
And that's just like my genius zone.
So like I'm always going to tell you that I think a sales call works the best.
That being said, if you are a coach that has like a one to many program, It doesn't... It may not make sense for setting accurate expectations. So evolve the sales process to be more like how you work with people. And that way, you'll have a smoother transition from selling to actually working together.
Yeah, that's a great point to match the experience, match the sales call or sales process to the experience. So in that example of someone who's teaching a one-to-many course, I have even a friend in mind who's selling her program right now that is more like an eight-month sort of engagement.
[46:44] Can you just give some... I know you've been in a lot of group programs over the years.
Can you give some examples of how you think that might look in a sales process?
I know I'm putting you on the spot here.
No, no. I think that's such a great question.
So what I have seen work well, and again, adapt this to your own and your people and your style, but I've seen some kind of like, well, what you do Amy is a nice thing where people can get to know you in many ways.
You're going and doing breath work in different groups where you're meeting new people and you have the podcast.
That's great. I think if you have a group container and you're wanting to do a bit more of a planned launch or a focused sales cycle, doing some kind of mini engagement is nice.
[47:37] I just had one group I consult with, they did a book club together where she just had...
She knew they were all interested in this one topic and they all read a book around it and so they built community together and it was in a group setting.
And then on the last day, she had a really intentional like, hey, if you liked this, we do this all the time over here in my container. This is what working together would look like.
And here's a special deal if you sign up now. So I think... I love that.
That's so creative. I know we're all a little jaded by challenge or mini contest or whatever you've seen a million times, but doing some kind of little mini community building event, which can have many faces, whatever feels fun for you.
And then having a one-off webinar even or something like that.
It could be as simple as that. It could be, if you like teaching, it could be a little workshop. It could be anything, as long as you like to do it and you can show up in good energy with it.
And then having some intentional invite or ask at the end. So it's, again, just like an opportunity to build trust and community with people and then having an intentional ask.
That, to me, works the best in those situations. And again, it's previewing.
Here's how we work in group and community together.
Here's a little taste of what the vibe's like on the inside.
Now do you want to join us?
[48:49] Partly what I'm hearing in that also is it's doing, if your program is one to many, it's doing the sales call, quote unquote, as a one to many.
Meaning if you have a live event and someone has a question about what it's like to work with you, answering it and everyone else is getting access to that same answer.
So you're not answering the same question over and over and over again to individual people.
And those group question and answers can be really powerful because a lot of times, I'm not a great person at putting together my own questions.
But then I hear somebody else say, and I'm like, oh, I had that question.
And so it helps people find their own answers.
And also, like you said, you don't have to answer the same thing over and over and over again.
So you're setting that expectation of one to many as soon as possible.
Mm-hmm. I love that. Since this podcast is called Breathe Into Business, and we have done breathwork together, but we haven't talked about breathwork at all in this episode yet. I'm just curious to hear from you. Do you incorporate your own breathwork practice into how you engage with sales?
Yeah. What a great question. So for me, breathwork has been monumental in helping me with nervous system regulation. I'm a pretty... I contend more on the anxious side.
And even before I have sales calls after this, I have anxiety about it. So I use breathwork to.
[50:17] Break up my days and bring myself back down or calm back down. And I have this practice that I really recommend. And it's very... So before any sales call or before any kind of sales relationship, however you decided that for your business. I really believe in this idea called a pre-call practice, where you take time before you get on with someone else to fill your own cup.
Like, how are my energy levels today? Where am I at right now? What do I need to do to adjust? So a lot of times in my pre-call practice, if I check in with myself and I'm kind of like frenetic, I will do a breath work because I know I need to come back down.
Or if I'm feeling really low that day, I might put on some Lizzo and dance around my office.
But having some kind of energy check and then tending to yourself is really important because this sounds kind of nuts, but I think the energy you show up with on a call and you hold on a call is the most important thing you can do.
More important than what you say, more important than your cool ninja objection handling moves.
If you show up in good energy, whatever that means to you or looks like for you, and you can hold that and the other person will rise to that.
[51:34] And like, that is really where a really powerful connection can happen.
But to do that, I can't show up like, just depleted and like, yeah, today, you know, there's a this pre call practice idea has been really, really helpful for me.
And breathwork is a really key part of that.
Well, I love that because it goes back to the two of cups, because what comes before Or the two of cups, the ace of cups, where we have to make sure that our own cup is full. So I don't know.
I like that. I love that. There's so much in sales about like filling your cup so you can fill others.
I know that's a common metaphor, but it like relates with everything.
So the cups just as a sweet is really perfect for this.
[52:13] Amazing. Well, thank you so much for being on here today. Can you tell folks where they can find you, how they can work with you? Anything else you want to share?
Yeah, absolutely. So like I mentioned, I have a podcast called Curiously Guided that I host if you want to...
Which I've been on if you want to listen to that. Yeah. Actually, that would be fantastic. Amy had an awesome... We talked a ton about Breathwork and how we use Breathwork in our businesses on that episode. So check me out there. I also do office hours with folks. So if you have a creative business and you're struggling around... What fires me up in life is I know all these people that have these awesome, game-changing ideas, but they don't know how to get it out in the world.
So if you are feeling like, I have this great thing and I'm just struggling with selling and getting more people on it, reach out to me. I do office hours. We can chat through anything you're hung up on. But my website is called saleswithshay.com. And you can find a link to those office hours there.
[53:10] Amazing. Thanks so much for being here, Shay. It was so fun to get to connect again.
Yeah, this is awesome. Thank you for having me.
Thanks so much for listening today. If you liked this episode, or even if it just got you to think about your business a little bit differently, I'd love for you to subscribe to the show and share it with a business bestie or a few of them. And if you're interested in breathing more into your own business, I made something just for you. It's a five-day, Breathwork Challenge for business owners.
Over five days, you'll learn how to use your breath to find deeper clarity and trust in yourself and in your business.
You can find it at amykoretsky.com slash breathe.
Breathe into Business is recorded on the ancestral lands of the Dakota and Anishinaabe peoples.
It is created by me, Amy Koretsky, with the production help from Softer Sounds Studios.
Thanks again for listening and breathing into your business with me today.
[54:10] Music.
